Jesus is Son of God & Son of Man (6 views) Subscribe   
  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/12/2001 11:55 am  
To:  ALL   (1 of 25)  
 
  65.1  
 
Son of Man
Huios (5207) son, son in the image of the father, son receiving an inheritance from the father.
Tou (5120) Of, possession, belonging to or coming from
Anthropos (444) man, human man - faced
Verses - Job 25:6 Psalm 8:4, 80:17 Ezek 2:1 Mat 8:20, 9:6, 10:23 Acts 7:56
First use: Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not do it? Or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good?
Matthew 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins,..

Son of Man is a name, a title, and a reference used by Jesus when referring to Himself. The prophet Ezekiel also often referred to himself as son of man. To be a son of man is to be human. Many people could easily see how Jesus is God, the miracles that He preformed, the prophecies that He foretold and the knowledge that Jesus possessed all testify of the Deity of Jesus. Jesus wanted the people around Him to understand that He was God, and that He was also a human, so Jesus often referred to Himself as the Son of Man. 

For example, some people were on an important journey to go from one place to another. Along the way they encountered a dangerous ravine so steep and deep that the ravine was impassible. The voyagers decided to split up into two groups and each group would walk in a different direction until a way was found to cross over the deadly ravine. The first group came across a very strong and sturdy bridge, but as they walked across the bridge they discovered that the construction of the bridge was only half complete. The bridge was strong and sturdy on their side but the bridge did not even exist on the other side, so therefore the bridge was totally useless to them. Disappointed the group turned back. The second group also found a strong sturdy bridge, as they walked out over the dangerous ravine to examine the bridge they noticed that the bridge was just as secure and sturdy on both sides. With a strong, bridge well anchored and secured on both sides the group was able to safely cross the dangerous ravine, and safely make it to their destination. Jesus is our safe and secure bridge; He is bridging the deep ravine that exists between God and mankind. This requires that Jesus be strongly anchored as God and that Jesus also be strongly anchored as a human. 

Some groups would like to remove the Deity from Jesus and other groups would like to remove the humanity from Jesus, and in doing this they are removing the bridge that exists between God and man.

Son of God
Huios (5207) son, son in the image of the father, son receiving an inheritance from the father.
Tou (5120) Of, possession, belonging to or coming from
Theos (2316) God, self-existing, eternal, Deity.
Verses - Dan 3:25 Mat 4:3, 8:29, 14:13, 16:16, 26:63, 27:43,54 Mark 1:1 Acts 8:37,9:20 Rom 1:4, 5:10, 8:3 
1Cor 1:9 2Cor 1:19 Gal 4:4 Eph 4:13 Heb 1:8, 4:14 1John 3:8 Rev 2:18
First use: Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the forth is like the Son of God.

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou Believest with all thine heart, thou mayest [be baptized]. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

Son of God is a name, a title, and a reference to Jesus. Only Jesus is referred to as the Son of God. Jesus is the begotten Son of God, meaning that Jesus is fully God, as His Father, is fully God.

Matthew 1:21 And she (Mary) shall bring forth a son (huios), and thou shalt call His name Jesus (Jehovah/Yahweh is Salvation): for He shall save (salvation, 4982) His people from their sins.

Jesus is always referred to in the Bible as a Son (Huios) an adult inheritor of the Fathers kingdom. Jesus is never referred to as a child (teknon). Teknon is used for humans as children of God. 

Sons of God
Huioi (5207) [Plural] sons, sons in the image of the father, sons receiving an inheritance from the father.
Twn (5120) [Plural] Of, possession, coming from or belonging to
Theos (2316) God, self-existing, eternal, Deity.
Verses - Gen 6:2,4 Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7 John 1:12 Rom 8:14,19 Gal 4:6 Phlip 2:15
First use: Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Job 38:7 When [at the designing and building of the earth] the morning stars sang together, and all the Sons of God shouted for joy?

The sons of God, are individual spirit life creations of God the Father, as sons they are also inheritors of the Fathers kingdom. Sons currently exist in the kingdom of God. Angels are referred to as Sons of God because they currently exist in the kingdom of God, and each of them is a unique individual creation of God. Adam being a unique creation of God and originally living in Gods kingdom is also called a Son of God. Currently each human is a son of man. When a human enters into the covenant relationship with God by acknowledging God, then the human becomes also a child of God, and a son of God. A human fully becomes a son of God when we physically die and enter into the perceivable presence of God, where we are adopted as sons; we receive a new unique spiritual body and an inheritance in the kingdom of God.

Excerpt from the Book
Basic Christian: Theology
By David A. Brown






David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/17/2001 10:05 am  
To:  ALL   (2 of 25)  
 
  65.2 in reply to 65.1  
 
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever, Believeth in Him should not perish, but have Everlasting life. 
Jesus is the Son of God: 

This statement seems to offer much confusion. People wonder how can Jesus be God and be the Son of God. 

Actually the term Begotten Son of God requires that Jesus is God. 

To say that Jesus is not God, Exactly like the Father is God, is to say that our earthly father is not a human. Our earthly fathers are Humans that is why we are humans. We are what our fathers are. 

Jesus is God as His Father is God. Jesus is God, always has been and always will be. 

The reason that the Term Son and Father are applied to Jesus and the Father is because Jesus became a man. With Jesus becoming a human in physical form in the Virgin birth, with a birth, it is necessary to Identify the Father. Jesus Identified His Father to us. The Father of Jesus is God. We know that Jesus does Not have an earthly father, if Jesus did he would be a human only, like us and not God. 

Also it is Important that Jesus has a Father. To not have a father is to be an orphan, or in old English to be a bastard. Jesus is not an orphan nor is he a bastard. Jesus is Family with the Father and is Beloved of the Father. Jesus is accepted by His Father God. By accepting Jesus we humans become family with Jesus and the Father. We do not become Gods, we are humans with a relationship with God. Jesus is God with a relationship with humans. 

Here are a series of Timelines to help place Bible Doctrine in perspective: 

http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/timece.stm 
New Testament Timeline 

http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/timebce.stm 
Old Testament Timeline 

http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/timechu1.stm 
Church History Timeline 

http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/corinthians/chronology.stm 
Life of Apostle Paul 





David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/17/2001 10:15 am  
To:  ALL   (3 of 25)  
 
  65.3 in reply to 65.1  
 
The Nicene Creed 325 A.D. was written to confirm to the world that Christians, worship God, who is Jesus in the flesh. That Jesus is both God and Man. 
--- 
When the Nicene Creed was drawn up, the chief (heresy) enemy was Arianism, which denied that Jesus was fully God. Arius was a presbyter (=priest = elder) in Alexandria in Egypt, in the early 300's. He taught that the Father, in the beginning, created (or begot) the Son, and that the Son, in conjunction with the Father, then proceeded to create the world. The result of this was to make the Son a created being, and hence not God in any meaningful sense. It was also suspiciously like the theories of those Gnostics and pagans who held that God was too perfect to create something like a material world, and so introduced one or more intermediate beings between God and the world. God created A, who created B, who created C, ... who created Z, who created the world. Alexander, Bishop of Alexandria, sent for Arius and questioned him. Arius stuck to his position, and was finally excommunicated by a council of Egyptian bishops. He went to Nicomedia in Asia, where he wrote letters defending his position to various bishops. Finally, the Emperor Constantine summoned a council of Bishops in Nicea (across the straits from modern Istambul), and there in 325 the Bishops of the Church, by a decided majority, repudiated Arius and produced the first draft of what is now called the Nicene Creed. A chief spokesman for the full deity of Christ was Athanasius, deacon of Alexandria, assistant (and later successor) to the aging Alexander. The Arian position has been revived in our own day by the Watchtower Society (the JW's), who explicitly hail Arius as a great witness to the truth. 

* When the Apostles' Creed was drawn up, the chief (heresy) enemy was Gnosticism, which denied that Jesus was truly Man; and the emphases of the Apostles' Creed reflect a concern with repudiating this error. 

Nicene Creed: 
We believe in one God, 
the Father, the Almighty, 
maker of heaven and earth, 
of all that is, seen and unseen. 

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, 
the only son of God, 
eternally begotten of the Father, 
God from God, Light from Light, 
true God from true God, 
begotten, not made, 
of one being with the Father. 
Through him all things were made. 
For us and for our salvation 
he came down from heaven: 
by the power of the Holy Spirit 
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, 
and was made man. 
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; 
he suffered death and was buried. 
On the third day he rose again 
in accordance with the Scriptures; 
he ascended into heaven 
and is seated at the right hand of the Father. 
He will come again in glory 
to judge the living and the dead, 
and his kingdom will have no end. 

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, 
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]. 
With the Father and the Son 
he is worshipped and glorified. 
He has spoken through the Prophets. 
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. 
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. 
We look for the resurrection of the dead, 
and the life of the world to come. AMEN. 






David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/17/2001 10:25 am  
To:  ALL   (4 of 25)  
 
  65.4 in reply to 65.1  
 
The Apostles' Creed 
Aprox. 700 A.D. 
I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. 

I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day He rose again. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. 

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic* Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. 

catholic - is a term that means one or universal church. Later it became only identified with as the Roman Catholic Church. 

http://netministries.org/apscreed.htm




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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/17/2001 11:53 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (5 of 25)  
 
  65.5 in reply to 65.3  
 
  You've neglected to mention, of course, the Athanasian Creed.  This is the Creed upon which most Christians' understanding of the Trinity is based.  Here is the text of this creed:
Whoever wants to be saved should above all cling to the catholic faith.
Whoever does not guard it whole and inviolable will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith: We worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being.

For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Spirit is still another.

But the deity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, equal in glory, coeternal in majesty.

What the Father is, the Son is, and so is the Holy Spirit.

Uncreated is the Father; uncreated is the Son; uncreated is the Spirit.

The Father is infinite; the Son is infinite; the Holy Spirit is infinite.

Eternal is the Father; eternal is the Son; eternal is the Spirit:

And yet there are not three eternal beings, but one who is eternal;

as there are not three uncreated and unlimited beings, but one who is uncreated and unlimited.

Almighty is the Father; almighty is the Son; almighty is the Spirit:

And yet there are not three almighty beings, but one who is almighty.

Thus the Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God:

And yet there are not three gods, but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord; the Son is Lord; the Holy Spirit is Lord:

And yet there are not three lords, but one Lord.

As Christian truth compels us to acknowledge each distinct person as God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten;

the Son was neither made nor created, but was alone begotten of the Father;

the Spirit was neither made nor created, but is proceeding from the Father and the Son.

Thus there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three spirits.

And in this Trinity, no one is before or after, greater or less than the other;

but all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons.

Whoever wants to be saved should think thus about the Trinity.

It is necessary for eternal salvation that one also faithfully believe that our Lord Jesus Christ became flesh.

For this is the true faith that we believe and confess: That our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and man.

He is God, begotten before all worlds from the being of the Father, and he is man, born in the world from the being of his mother --

existing fully as God, and fully as man with a rational soul and a human body;

equal to the Father in divinity, subordinate to the Father in humanity.

Although he is God and man, he is not divided, but is one Christ.

He is united because God has taken humanity into himself; he does not transform deity into humanity.

He is completely one in the unity of his person, without confusing his natures.

For as the rational soul and body are one person, so the one Christ is God and man.

He suffered death for our salvation.

He descended into hell and rose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

At his coming all people shall rise bodily to give an account of their own deeds.

Those who have done good will enter eternal life,

those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith.

One cannot be saved without believing this firmly and faithfully.





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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/17/2001 11:58 am  
To:  ALL   (6 of 25)  
 
  65.6 in reply to 65.5  
 
  I'm surprised that the irony escapes most Christians, who profess to recognize The Holy Bible as the sole source of religious truth and authority, that much of their faith, much of their doctrine, is based on these very unbiblical, man-made Creeds.  What they accept as God's own truth is really nothing more than the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture.



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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/17/2001 6:05 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (7 of 25)  
 
  65.7 in reply to 65.6  
 
Bob, 
The Bible is the Bible and writings about the Bible are writings about the Bible. Christians have literally filled libraries and rooms full of the volumes of Christian writing. Christians have no problem with writings about the Bible. Our Distain is for pretenders like Joseph Smith that have come along and Pretended to write additional Bible passages. 

The creeds consist of writings about the Bible, and are not additional Bible verses. The creeds are condensed versions of Theology. 

The only Irony is that you a Mormon would post a Christian creed that Demolishes Mormonism. 





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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/17/2001 6:51 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (8 of 25)  
 
  65.8 in reply to 65.7  
 
Hi David.... 
Yes the creeds were condensed theology and for good reason. One should remember they were memorized by the flock because the people could neither read or write...these creeds were given as an AID to understanding the faith. The Sheperds of the church were trying to give the flock a condensed biblical perspective in matters of doctrine. 

This was also the intent of stained glass windows and icons being displayed in cathederals/churches. The original purpose was to tell the Bible, in picture form, to the illiterate..along the way the items themselves became worshipped or adored....that was not the original intent though. 
Regards, 
R/C
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/17/2001 7:17 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (9 of 25)  
 
  65.9 in reply to 65.8  
 
Hi, 
To us Christians we would never add to the Bible so it dosn't even occur to us that some people think the creeds are aditional Bible verses. 

I think the creed writers were Extreamly careful and did a good job not to add any concept that is not already Biblical. 

Bob being a Mormon must have assumed that everything written by humans with a biblical sound is considered biblical.




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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/17/2001 7:19 pm  
To:  ALL   (10 of 25)  
 
  65.10 in reply to 65.8  
 
I would still like to examine the Virgin Birth of Jesus. 
Namely, Jesus is either the Son of God or the son of a man. 

The Bible and the actions of those in the Bible make it clear that Joseph the Husband of Mary is not the father of Jesus. Some, even people in the Bible, seeking to deny the Deity of Jesus have suggested that Jesus was the son of an unknown person, maybe a Roman soldier. 

 Had Jesus been the son of a man, and not the Son of God, the true offender of the Crucifixion of Jesus would have been Mary. Because Mary would have withheld testimony disproving the Claim of Jesus as Deity. 

Jesus was Crucified for the Crime of Blasphemy, claiming to be God. Mary knowing that Jesus is indeed the Son of God, did not dispute it at the public trial of Pontius Pilate. Mary is quite possibly the one person that could have stopped the Crucifixion of Jesus. Had Mary told the Roman officials that Jesus had an earthly father the Crucifixion would never have taken place. The charges of Blasphemy would have been dropped as Jesus would be proven by His own mother to be just another human and not God. 

If you doubt that Jesus is God, Mary confirmed it for us at the Trial and Cross of her son Jesus. 

God has designed it that men and women separately do not have enough chromosomes to conceive another human. Specifically a woman does not in herself have the chromosomes to have a male child. The male chromosomes come from the male. If for instance Mary had a unique (never has happened) self conception child birth, then the child would be a girl as a woman does not possess the male chromosomes. Jesus as we know is a male and therefore Jesus is biologically different than Mary. 

Also of note it is a virgin birth, by definition a woman cannot naturally have a virgin birth, because loss of virginity is required to become pregnant. The Mormons incorrectly teach that God had intercourse with Mary. Had God had intercourse with Mary then she would no longer be a virgin because intercourse by definition is a loss of virginity. And the Birth of Jesus would not be a Virgin Birth. The Virgin Birth of Jesus was not a Natural event but a Supernatural event. 

The virgin Birth happened because God provided Mary as the means to Physically bring Jesus into our physical existence. 

The Bible refers to Jesus Taking on the appearance of a man as a Metamorphose a change of appearance. Jesus Being God already existed, He then Metamorphosed (changed) in appearance into the appearance of a Human to interact and to naturally be among us humans. 

The Bible leaves no room for compromise, Jesus is God, always existing as God and will always be God, in the Image of God His Father in Heaven. 






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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/17/2001 9:09 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (11 of 25)  
 
  65.11 in reply to 65.7  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
The Bible is the Bible and writings about the Bible are writings about the Bible. Christians have literally filled libraries and rooms full of the volumes of Christian writing. Christians have no problem with writings about the Bible

The creeds consist of writings about the Bible, and are not additional Bible verses. The creeds are condensed versions of Theology.
  The Creeds are more than just writings about the Bible, they are accepted statements of theological doctrine.  It is true that they are based, to some degree, on the Bible, but they also contain doctrine which is not found in the Bible.  If you truly believe in the Bible, and accept it as the sole valid source of theological doctrine, then logically, you must reject the Creeds, at least in part.



The only Irony is that you a Mormon would post a Christian creed that Demolishes Mormonism.
  If I accepted the Athanasian Creed as true and doctrinal, then I would have to admit that yes, it does indeed refute the very roots of Mormonism.  I did not post it because I think it is true or doctrinal; I posted it because, of the three Creeds, it is the one which most blatantly shows itself for what it truly is  an incoherent, illogical mess of disorganized thought, the product of unenlightened men attempting in vain to reconcile the pure truth of the Bible with the heathen teachings of Greek philosophers and other infidels.  These Creeds are expressions, in part, of the beliefs of those who were enemies of Christ and the church he founded.  Imagine how bizarre it would be if, two thousand years or so from now, the Jewish faith had incorporated into itself, and accepted as core parts of its beliefs, theories that originated among the Nazi party in Germany in the 1930s and 1940s.  That is how bizarre it truly is, that these Creeds are now considered to be central to the beliefs of much of Christianity.



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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/17/2001 9:17 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (12 of 25)  
 
  65.12 in reply to 65.10  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) lied:
The Mormons incorrectly teach that God had intercourse with Mary.
  * sigh *

  We've been over this before, David.  You know that the Mormon church does not teach this, and never has.

  You know that this claim is a lie, yet you continue to repeat it.



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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/17/2001 11:29 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (13 of 25)  
 
  65.13 in reply to 65.5  
 
Bob, 
Since you are making such accusations about the Christian creeds why dont you quote what you disagree with? 

I suspect you disagree with the Trinity. 

Anyhow, Remember to disagree politely! 

Thank You, 
David 





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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   7/18/2001 2:08 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (14 of 25)  
 
  65.14 in reply to 65.10  
 
Jesus was Crucified for the Crime of Blasphemy, claiming to be God. Mary knowing that Jesus is indeed the Son of God, did not dispute it at the public trial of Pontius Pilate. Mary is quite possibly the one person that could have stopped the Crucifixion of Jesus. Had Mary told the Roman officials that Jesus had an earthly father the Crucifixion would never have taken place. The charges of Blasphemy would have been dropped as Jesus would be proven by His own mother to be just another human and not God. 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 

No, Actually, had she admitted it, he would have been stoned or crucified for being proven by his own mother's word to be a pretender. 

Al Kupone
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/18/2001 8:50 am  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (15 of 25)  
 
  65.15 in reply to 65.14  
 
He would Not have been Crucified. Rome was the sole authority to crucify, and Pontius Pilate was looking for any reason to release Jesus and not to crucify Him. 
The Jewish crowds tried on several occasions to stone Jesus. 

Only the Crucifixion would match the Descriptions already existing in the Jewish Old Testament about how the Messiah would be rejected, suffer and die. 

Actually the Virgin Birth, Physical Presance, Ministry, Crucifixion, and Resurrection of Jesus are all foretold in the Bible. 






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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/18/2001 11:58 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (16 of 25)  
 
  65.16 in reply to 65.13  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
Since you are making such accusations about the Christian creeds why dont you quote what you disagree with?
  You posted the Nicene Creed and the Apostles' Creed earlier in this very thread.  In my view, both of these Creeds contain mostly truth, but also some man-made falsehood.

  I posted the Athanasian Creed, which I consider to contain very, very little truth, if any at all; and to consist almost entirely of irrational, illogical, incoherent nonsense.



I suspect you disagree with the Trinity.
  I disagree very much with the Athanasian Creed and with the description of the Trinity, as described in this heathen Creed, and accepted by most Christians.



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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/18/2001 3:26 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (17 of 25)  
 
  65.17 in reply to 65.16  
 
Bob, 
I started a new post Athanasian Creed 

If you desire, you can post your objections to the creed on that string. 

I do agree with the Creed 100%. 

I do appreciate anyone who is researching their beliefs. 

When you quote please quote a specific reference from the creed that you disagree with and then why you think it is unbiblical. 

Also if you quote the BoM or any Mormon material, please post the relevant quote w/o a Mormon link. 

Thank You, 
David 





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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/18/2001 8:20 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (18 of 25)  
 
  65.18 in reply to 65.12  
 
CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY www.carm.org 
Source 
www.carm.org/lds/lds_doctrines.htm 

What does Mormonism teach? 

11. God the Father has a body of flesh and bones, Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22. 

19. God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218, 1857; vol. 8, p. 115. - This one is disputed among many Mormons and not always 'officially' taught and believed. Nevertheless, Young, the 2nd prophet of the Mormon church taught it. 





David A. Brown
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   7/18/2001 10:37 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (19 of 25)  
 
  65.19 in reply to 65.18  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
What does Mormonism teach?

11. God the Father has a body of flesh and bones, Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22.
  Yes, we believe this.  So what?



19. God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218, 1857; vol. 8, p. 115. - This one is disputed among many Mormons and not always 'officially' taught and believed. Nevertheless, Young, the 2nd prophet of the Mormon church taught it.
  Brigham Young may or may not have said such a thing.  The Journal of Discourses is not a reliable source.  If Young said this, he was mistaken.  More likely, the author of the Journal of Discourses was mistaken.  No other prophet has said any such thing, nor has any such thing ever been recorded as a prophecy.  This has never been taught in our church.  The only doctrine we have on the manner of Christ's conception is the account in the Bible.



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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/19/2001 10:19 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (20 of 25)  
 
  65.20 in reply to 65.19  
 
Since Mormons believe that God is flesh and blood, than the Only way God could have impregnated Mary is through intercourse, totally contradicting the Virgin Birth of Jesus.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.







David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum




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Edited 7/19/01 1:21:58 PM ET by DAVIDABROWN 
  
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From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/19/2001 11:33 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (22 of 25)  
 
  65.22 in reply to 65.21  
 
According to Genesis 3:15 the Messiah would be the seed of the Woman and not of seed of a man. Therefore the Pre-Existence and the Virgin Birth of Jesus. 
Mormonism teaches that Mormons will become gods and give birth to baby gods, but that simply is not the case. God has Always existed and God does not come from the seed of man.

Mormonism is so blatantly Wrong! in All of its teachings and assumptions!

Genesis 3:15 And I (God) will put enmity between thee (Satan) and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed (Jesus); it shall bruise thy head (skull), and thou shalt bruise His heel.

And indeed the heel of Jesus was bruised while supporting His weight while on the Cross. And the head of Satan was bruised as Jesus triumphed on the cross on a hill named Golgotha (skull) {John 19:17}.






David A. Brown
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  From:  Dr_Shock   7/19/2001 11:51 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (23 of 25)  
 
  65.23 in reply to 65.22  
 
<<<According to Genesis 3:15 the Messiah would be the seed of the Woman and not of seed of a man. Therefore the Pre-Existence and the Virgin Birth of Jesus.>>> 
Genesis 3:15 says absolutely nothing of the Messiah. Jesus isn't even mentioned hypothetically in the Old Testament. To say that the following relates to the virgin birth is beyond any form of logical connection, even when taken into the complete context of Genesis 3: "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." 

According to popular belief from Biblical times through the 1500's, women had no part in the actual conception of a baby other then to carry it to term. It was the man's sperm that was believed to be the sole basis of human reproduction. This logic is even reiterated throughout the Bible several times (although the Old Testament "usually" follows what we now know to be the truth on the subject). This is where the "every sperm is sacred" belief comes from thanks to St. Frances and the other uneducated people of and before his time. 



-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/20/2001 12:12 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (24 of 25)  
 
  65.24 in reply to 65.23  
 
Genesis 3:15
Is Exactly the Messiah verse The Messiah is the Promised Redeemer to Save Mankind from the Sin and Death that just occurred. This is the original Promise from God in the Bible, all of the other promises are reminders and explanations of this promise. And it is a Virgin Birth as the woman does not posses the seed, the man does, this could only be a virgin birth.
Genesis Chapter 3 is the fall of Mankind and the Promised Restoration via the seed of the woman.

Adam and the woman so strongly Believed in the Promise that God spoke to them that Adam then Began to call her Eve, meaning the mother of all living. Of course believing that God would undo the curse of death and reunite them into a living relationship with God.

Genesis 3:20 And Adam called his wifes name Eve; because she was the mother of all Living.

Adam and Eve like everyone in the Old Testament died in Hope of the promise to come. The promise Fulfilled in Jesus.

Jesus after His Resurrection then took All of the Old Testament Saint to heaven with Him.






David A. Brown
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   From:  Dr_Shock   7/20/2001 2:18 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (25 of 25)  
 
  65.25 in reply to 65.24  
 
Genesis 3:15 mentions the Messiah nowhere in its text. All of Genesis 3 is simply God's instructions to Adam and Eve. Genesis can, in no way, be allegorical in reference to Jesus or Mary if one is to believe the story of Genesis as fact. As one can see from my pervious post, the Messiah, a virgin birth or anything similar is mentioned nowhere in Genesis 3:15. Not even symbolically. Its like saying the Beast in Revelation is really a dragon which will come out of the sea when, in fact, the Beast will most likely be a mortal man who comes from across the ocean. 
A Messiah of any description similar to that of Jesus (in his acts or in his teachings) is nowhere to be found in the Old Testament, just as the Old Testament books found in the Dead Sea Scrolls make no mention of Jesus, his disciples or his followers. Most likely because the Old Testament is of Jewish origin and the Jews still don't consider Jesus as much more than an important prophet. 

<<< And it is a Virgin Birth as the woman does not posses the seed, the man does, this could only be a virgin birth.>>> 

I think we all know better now. It takes two to tango. 



-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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